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Multiview Demos Taking Off ? $comment_count ?>
Highlander's amazing new QW demo format, MVD, is starting to create some real waves in the QW community with the release of a MVD demo between SD3 EU hotshots Slackers and ToT.

What's so incredible about MVD? Well, it's basically the fabled multiview demo that has been much talked about, but never done.

MVD (Multi-View Demo) records the demo server-side which you can then view using a client which is based on the zquake code. Each demo contains the POVs of all players - for a standard 4-on-4 you get one demo with 8 POVs and you can cycle through them or just float around watching, exactly the same as if you were a spectator on the server. If you like, you can float up into the sky and have a bird's eye view of the entire map, watching all 8 players zoom around like ants.

That's pretty cool isn't it?

Something else which is nice about MVD demos is that they are really smooth. AFAIK, Highlander achieves this by a mix of interpolation and a low framerate (you don't need 72 fps in a demo). You can also convert QWD/QWZ demos to MVD, which means that you can "smooth out" a jerky HPW demo. Last time I heard from him, Highlander was working on how to convert multiple QWD demos into one MVD.

Highlander also told me that he wants to add a sound system later, a la Qizmo, which would enable commenting demos, as well as some other stuff, including multiview demo recording by the client, and what he tantalisingly describes as "full editing stuff".

editing demos (cut, paste, adding sounds etc) and for playbacking: rewind, ff, replays, screen spliting, possibility to add voice, text etc etc

It doesn't take much to imagine what could be done with a MVD demo if you were able to re-record it in an edited format, selecting which views to show, and adding a layer of commentary.

Some of you might recognise Highlander from the CPM team, where he also contributed lots of cool stuff. It looks like the EU QW scene, the most active and developed in the world, will be encouraging Highlander to develop MVD even further. With not much happening in the way of multiview demos with Q3A (to my knowledge, anyway), MVD is helping QW to remain relevant and contemporary to anyone with an interest in FPS innovation.

If you'd like to know more, and maybe download MVD and check out a multiview demo for yourself, check out

Comment #1 by on 13:27, Friday, 02 November 2001
this is just awesome! =)

Comment #2 by on 13:58, Friday, 02 November 2001

I have always wanted this...
Comment #3 by on 17:08, Friday, 02 November 2001
esp the "like ants" top view... I think it could give strategic insights that weren't possible before. I think it is also extremely funny and interesting to see people _just_ walk past eachother, not being aware eachothers presence etc.

One extra very cool feature would be player names blended in next to the actual model on screen, which would help following the match from above even more (heck, names in demos would even be cool in 1st person).

One warning: if this feature ever makes it possible to watch a match like this live, then cheating through specs would become extremely effective (moreso than now).

tip for whoever took that screenshot: gl_clear 1

Comment #4 by on 18:07, Friday, 02 November 2001
this rox
yet another feature that takes QW to a higher level than any game has been before

make this for Q3 and make me a happy gamer :)

cheating specs
Comment #5 by on 18:14, Friday, 02 November 2001
well, the cheating issue can be addressed by delayed broadcast which would only require a change on the server but as the server has to be upgraded/replaced to enable multipov demos this shouldn't be a problem.

as used
Comment #6 by on 19:15, Friday, 02 November 2001
in bloodrain 6 qwctf competition (new zealand).
Some excellent demos have been produced. gg highlander

ok, some ideas
Comment #7 by on 23:01, Friday, 02 November 2001
just been trying it a lot, and here's some ideas for improvement:

- qw automatically blends a "greenish" colour over the whole screen as soon as you fly outside the map... this hampers visibility of the players. This should be removed, and replaced by something that automatically does gl_clear on/off.

- on a big map like dm3, players can still be hard to spot and its hard keeping an overview.. the quad player however is always very visible however. This brings me to my idea: have an option to have ALL players glow, and in 2 team colours that don't conflict with quad (and less so pent)... I am guessing green and orange would work best.

viewing tip: I found its easiest to keep an overview when using fov 50 and flying high above the map.

it can only get better
Comment #8 by on 04:07, Saturday, 03 November 2001

Comment #9 by on 11:27, Saturday, 03 November 2001
Things that suck:
We had an overhead view capability for Q3 1.17.
We also had the ability to edit 1.17 demos (though 1.25 was out by the time I realised that) and could have fed things like rewind, slomo, etc into them without much trouble.
If id didn't fight us every friggin step of the way, we could still have those things now.

Things that don't suck:
The faint hope that at some point FonFon might have time to do the same thing for Q3.

Comment #10 by on 11:42, Saturday, 03 November 2001
One other think that doesn't suck:

Carmack's willingness to open-source QW.

We don't give him a tenth of the thanks or credit he deserves for that decision. None of this would possible (or rather, would be orders of magnitude more hassle) without that; nor would there be zquake; and so on.

(Which, incidentally, should make it pretty bloody clear just what a bunch of thieving SHITKUNTS the mqwcl people are).

2 Aardappel:
Comment #11 by on 12:39, Saturday, 03 November 2001
If you don't like the greenish blending when you fly outside the map, just use v_contentblend 0 (it's a standard QW 2.33 command)

As for gl_clear, it paints the background bright red so it doesn't look very good.
In ZQuake (and probably in MVD viewer too) you can use a neat hack to force the background to be cleared: set vid_hwgammacontrol to 0 and gl_contrast to any value higher than 1 (e.g. gl_contrast 1.5)

editing demos
Comment #12 by on 13:18, Saturday, 03 November 2001
yeah, we recorded a semi final in aus qwtf between pnp and fv, which was 8v8 on two spammy and open maps for 40 mins. it ended up being about 16 meg @ 15fps i think. it was awesome to be able to watch the match from any players pov, and nice to see how much of a retard i was on d from the enemy's attack point of view :D

btw, if you're looking for qwd editing _now_, go to its a qwd editing project by an aus qwtf'r (i think), and while i've never actually used it the author does relatively regular 'demo's-of-the-week' where he cuts bits up and adds comments etc. ie, it does actually edit demos :)))

Comment #13 by on 18:19, Saturday, 03 November 2001
thanks for the contentblend tip... it is not a universal solution however, it may also shut other things of you may want (water, blood).

As for the colour of gl_clear, changing this to black is absolutely trivial.

Comment #14 by on 01:02, Sunday, 04 November 2001
As someone mentioned, it would be good to have (optional) player names come up above the players heads or something while in spec mode.

Comment #15 by on 05:11, Monday, 05 November 2001
lets get straight just like this
this is for me the best news of the year along with the current ongoing activity of qw in the smackdown regions

Comment #16 by on 05:14, Monday, 05 November 2001

Comment #17 by on 06:05, Tuesday, 06 November 2001

Comment #18 by on 15:32, Tuesday, 06 November 2001
get lost arqon
if you're bored add orange armors to cmpa or sth.. or play qw? you'll relax then
and don't call "mqwcl ppl" shitcunts, in fact it's not only me with mqwcl, because many ppl helped with many many things - ideas, suggestions, bugfixes, docs, web pages, gfx, but it's only me who hasn't realeased sourcecode yet, why you call others shitcunts?

Comment #19 by on 15:33, Tuesday, 06 November 2001
and MVD really rocks :)

Comment #20 by on 01:40, Wednesday, 07 November 2001
My bad, azazello. If you're the only one not releasing source then yeah, you're the only shitkunt.
Mild apologies to the other mqwcl people, though I wonder why anyone would bother to help such an SK in the first place.

sir arqon
Comment #21 by on 08:47, Wednesday, 07 November 2001
yeah.. write it down, and next time you see some happy news about sth new and cool in QW, destroy it with correct version of "mqwcl shitcunts comment". ppl are whilling to read it for sure..

Comment #22 by on 15:16, Wednesday, 07 November 2001
erm... I was pretty clear on the comments about how cool I think the MVD stuff is.

But it reminded me how the only reason QW *can* evolve is through Carmack's generosity in the first place. Thieving fuckwads like you only hurt that. You still haven't worked out why Smackdown bans mqwcl, and why Challenge won't mirror it, have you?

Comment #23 by on 17:59, Wednesday, 07 November 2001
shitcunts? thieving fuckwads?
wtf is wrong with you GOD ARqON?

is there anyone who still wants to talk with you? me not.. eot

Comment #24 by on 19:45, Wednesday, 07 November 2001
Shitkunt sums up everything pretty well. I don't see why you have a problem with arQon. Thieving fuckwad also works :) If you think disobeying the GPL is a good thing, well, there is no point of me even trying to explain it...

Now where is that anti-llama filter button on this page...

Oh, and who wants to sign my "Sue the shitkunt" petition that will be sent to Carmack?

BTW, I must say arQon, you sure have a good sense of vocab selection.. funny stuff :)

mqwcl rocks
Comment #25 by on 00:14, Thursday, 08 November 2001
Dont ever give out the source to mqwcl.. it will only couse trouble!! is better to care for the QW-comunity than to care for the GPL.
Nice that fakeshaft is removed now, a lot of ppl would give me shit absout using mqwcl becouse of the fakeshaft, even thoug i always had cl_fakeshaft 0

Comment #26 by on 00:35, Thursday, 08 November 2001

I also wonder why some mod authors don't release their source code anymore. Is it because the game code isn't bound by the GPL?

What would Q3 be like if id had released their game code under the GPL? I wonder how many would also follow in the footsteps of azazello. Would you consider it for CPMA, to stop the cheaters ruining your hard work?

Are you defending the legalities of the GPL or is it that you believe in the open-source movement so religiously that you must attack those who don't release their code? If so then why isn't the CPMA source code freely available?

I don't condone azazello's refusal to release his source code but I do understand his reasoning. That reasoning is shared by many others and I'm sure you share it too which is why the CPMA source code isn't freely available.

Legalities aside, you and azazello aren't any different.

Comment #27 by on 07:25, Thursday, 08 November 2001
"Legalities aside", we're not any different. Yeah, okay. And nationalities aside, we're from the same country...

We DO open plenty of the OSP/CPMA code (which, as you say, is not based on GPL code). All the clever stuff like the pmove fixes; ProMode skins; enemy models; true lightning; and ProMode itself are available to anyone who wants them. Threewave, Alliance, and more than a few other mods have benefited from that willingness to share.

The difference between us and azazello is that we open up code willingly, when we have no obligation to do so; and he refuses to do the same with code that he IS required to.

If he were to open-source all of mqwcl with the exception of the cheat-related stuff, then while it wouldn't put him on any firmer ground legally, at least morally I don't think anyone would have a problem with that.

That's my issue with him, because it's clear that he's not interested in following even the SPIRIT of the license that let him make mqwcl in the first place in any way whatsoever. While he keeps the entire codebase closed, spouting this "Oh, it's so people can't use hacked clients" line, which you know as well as I do is him just blowing smoke, he remains everything I said he is.

Comment #28 by on 08:31, Thursday, 08 November 2001
how about having a duel, 5 maps on qw using mqwcl and 5 maps on q3a using cpma

Comment #29 by on 09:32, Thursday, 08 November 2001

well said arQon
Comment #30 by on 18:21, Thursday, 08 November 2001

I agree with what arqon has to say. The mqwcl client is illegal and will remain so until the author releases the source.

On the other hand, it doesn't help all the other coders at all. Gpl code is supposed to be shared. People are encouraged to borrow code from other projects.

This can't happen with mqwcl. Whenever a feature is implemented in mqwcl, nobody else can implement it straight away by borrowing code. They have to rewrite it.

When a feature comes out in another client that the mqwcl writers like, they merely copy and paste.

mqwcl may be good for giving people a false sense of security, but it will never be secure. Fake clients are more than capable of being coded to act exactly as mqwcl. The closed source paradigm only gives a false sense of security seeing as the code for the main client - which everyone remains compatible with - has been released.

If you think mqwcl being closed source will save you - it won't. Anyone who really wants to cheat, will get their own "mqwcl immitator".

Give out the source!

Comment #31 by on 21:16, Thursday, 08 November 2001
The reason mqwcl doesn't release the source is they don't want their client hacked in a matter of 30 seconds. I am sure that if someone found some cool feature from mqw they wanted to incorporate in their mod, the programmer would gladly tell how they did it or send that bit of code out.

One more reason why they dont release the source is that as soon as they did, no one will use their client. If the source were ever released I would never want to play with people that used mqw because there would be a huge chance they were cheating. Does the guy have a godlike shaft or semi-decent coding abilities? Some leagues allow mqw, but no league would ever accept an open source client. It would be too easy to cheat.

Comment #32 by on 22:48, Thursday, 08 November 2001
zzjzz? Hmm. Last time I looked, Smackdown REQUIRES that players use an open-source client, and mqwcl is banned...

As I said, this "oh, oh, they'll hack the client" line is pure bullshit. azazello could release the entire source except for its auth code tomorrow and it wouldn't lead to any more "fake" mqw clients than there are today.

Unfortunately, that would also mean he couldn't take code from other client teams while giving them nothing in return, so that's not going to happen. Because the ONLY reason mqw stays locked in his petty little hands is so he can continue to leech off people with more talent and morals than him while keeping certain features "mqw-only" to try and stay ahead of them.

Comment #33 by on 02:42, Friday, 09 November 2001
arQon? Hmm. Last time I looked, I didn't mention smackdown at all did I? Quite a few events allow mqw like the chqw 2v2 tourney.

Even if az did what you said, and released everything but the auth code, I am sure that you would still jump all over him for not releasing the auth code. It is imho that they aren't releasing the source code to prevent cheating. You think otherwise. In any case it doesn't really matter. They can just claim that a few leaked betas of mqw have been released. It is my understanding that you don't have to release the source code until you formally release your mod.

In any case, I personally do not use mqw and probably never will. I do however sympathize with people trying to keep qw cheat free and I honestly believe that is why they don't release the source.

LOL zzjzz
Comment #34 by on 06:17, Friday, 09 November 2001
"A few leaked betas"? You mean, people kept stealing mqwcl binaries from aza's computer for a year and he hasn't noticed that? :) And the "official mqwcl page" has been around for half a year (moving around constantly which is not surprising -- looks like people who give them hosting delete the account as soon as they find out the illegal nature of the project.)
Having good intentions ("to prevent cheating") doesn't make mqwcl any more legal than it is. Neither does it hide the fact of aza being (I'll quote arQon) a thieving fuckwad.

Comment #35 by on 12:52, Friday, 09 November 2001
"It is my understanding that you don't have to release the source code until you formally release your mod. "

Nope. If I have a binary, the people who built it are required to provide me with source on request. This includes _any_ binary, even a stolen one.

"arQon? Hmm. Last time I looked, I didn't mention smackdown at all did I?"

Er, read more carefully.

zzjzz: "but no league would ever accept an open source client"

arQon: "Smackdown REQUIRES that players use an open-source

"If the source were ever released I would never want to play with people that used mqw because there would be a huge chance they were cheating."

Which confirms my belief that cheating is mostly a psychological problem.

If you find you cannot play with people who might be cheating, you have an attitude problem. Sort it, or find people you can trust. You _cannot_ say 'X is not cheating cos he's using client Y'. Closed source makes finding exploits harder, but it is not a guarantee.

Comment #36 by on 13:12, Friday, 09 November 2001
zzjzz: #33 "Even if az did what you said, and released everything but the auth code, I am sure that you would still jump all over him for not releasing the auth code."

arQon: #27 "If he were to open-source all of mqwcl with the exception of the cheat-related stuff, then while it wouldn't put him on any firmer ground legally, at least morally I don't think anyone would have a problem with that."

gg reading.

Comment #37 by on 14:29, Friday, 09 November 2001
arQon: #27 "If he were to open-source all of mqwcl with the exception of the cheat-related stuff, then while it wouldn't put him on any firmer ground legally, at least MORALLY I don't think anyone would have a problem with that."

gg reading? why did you use "Morally"? "I don't think" is also quite a precise statement.

yea ggkthx

I know for a fact that if everything but the auth code was released, you would still go nuts arqon. "MORALLY its semi-unnaccpetable, but its illegal and against the GPL! DIE DIE DIE DIE MQW!" Its ok, you can try to deny it :) You are a very arDent and strict follower of the GPL. I don't have any problem with that.

Maj, perhaps I should have been more clear. No league would allow only an open source client. SD requires players to use qizmo (which is closed source as you know) along with the standard client. The reason SD does this is to cut down cheating. SD would never ever use zquake despite all its great features because it would take all of 15 seconds for someone to hack it. There have been some very hi-profile players that have been caught cheating in the past. I have little doubt that people would cheat if given the chance. In a league you can't pick who you play against, and one would hope things are done on the up and up. I have personally seen people use "open source" clients on the net and play like demi-gods and then when forced to use qizmo and qw in an official game, they play like garbage. Yes using closed source clients is no guarantee that a person isn't cheating, but it makes me feel a bit more comfortable facing someone using quake and qizmo than other clients.

Finally Maj, I didn't know that if you had a binary (even if stolen) the people were required to release the source. Quite interesting.

no idea
Comment #38 by on 18:18, Friday, 09 November 2001
arQon, as i can imagine you are someone who has never broken any law, you are acting correct all the time. You never made anything for your own pleasure, you never used any hacked program, you never ripped any cd, any illegal mp3, all you ever did was OK.
Well, even if that is true you simply shouldn't say such things about someone who did so hard work, who spent about a year working and making something not for his own pleasure but for others, and i'm sure he made others happy.
So please use your head next time before you start writing such comments.

yeah, stupid arqon
Comment #39 by on 21:06, Friday, 09 November 2001

Writing a qw client entitles you to break the law - I's a lot of hard work. Come on guys, it's perfectly fine to break the law. As long as you have good intentions.

It's also made a lot of people equally unhappy. Perhaps more than it's made other people happy.

rxr, your words are blackmail and I don't think any of us will have a single word of it.

Comment #40 by on 22:33, Friday, 09 November 2001
"The mqwcl client is illegal and will remain so until the author releases the source."

That's wrong, MQWCL is not illegal. It's just made illegal by the fact that players like you are allowed to use it. Aza could just have kept the whole project privately, only giving it to people he knows/likes, you wouldnt even know about its existance. He didn't, Aza made it available for everyone to enjoy his work he spent so much time on. To me it's totally understandable that he doesn't want anyone to be able to change HIS client, mqwcl isn't id's work, it's aza's.
I can't understand why people are so harsh to aza, even worse, they're insulting to someone who has spent so much time at improving QW, whether you like it or not.

Comment #41 by on 23:59, Friday, 09 November 2001
"mqwcl isn't id's work, it's aza's." - Do I even have to point out this is bullshit? Obviously for for some of you... yes.

mqwcl would not exist, if id hadn't released the their source. It's real simple isn't it.

mqwcl would not exist, if id hadn't released the their source. It's real simple isn't it.

(I repeated that intentionally, as I know some of you have trouble with these simple concepts [I blame TV]).

Individuals or groups taking all the benifits from opensource, but unwilling to give the same back are bad for us all.
... [small pause for fuckyou/fuckoff/etc thoughts]

There are few enough companies willing to give up their code, supporting GPL breaking projects will make this fewer still. Thats my main concern.

Remember GPL gave you mqwcl.
GPL gave us QWE, great work HighlandeR!
And Hoony your stil got it, 1st post in how ever long and you got a mini flame out of it :)

Comment #42 by on 00:18, Saturday, 10 November 2001
zzjzz - if you want to claim that my clearly-stated opinion is something that you "know for a fact" is actually not my opinion at all, then you're going to look like an idiot.
(Although, given the inaccuracies in your other posts, it's hard to believe that it really IS "you" making these comments.)

"I know for a fact that zzjzz is absolutely in favor of mqwcl going open-source. Ignore him when he says that he isn't, because *I say* he is".
See how ridiculous that sounds?

You and andy are very confused. azazello does not have ANY right, under either the letter of the GPL OR the spirit under which the QW code was GIVEN to us in the first place, to act the way he has, and to say that it's "his" code more than it is id's is downright stupid. I mean, could you be any LESS informed?

Anyway, back to the topic at hand: MVD stuff is very cool. Moreover, it's something that everyone can enjoy; and that people will be able to continue to develop for as long as they want to, because it's not dependent on petty fuckwads like azazello. :)

inverse reasoning
Comment #43 by on 00:44, Saturday, 10 November 2001
This is purely inverse reasoning. If you really believe that a GPL-based client can't be safe, then why did you start using GPL code in the first place?

The moment you start using GPL code (well, to be precise, the moment you give a binary to anyone), you accept the terms of th e GPL. Faking naivity of not understanding the GPL is a bit... laughable.

If you don't like the license a code is under, don't use the code. Nobody stops you from coding your own engine!

Even worse, the cheating argument holds no ground... if I want to cheat, why would I need the mqwcl source? I can use... the original qwcl source! brilliant!

Comment #44 by on 04:02, Saturday, 10 November 2001
If arQon played qw he would be in clan denial. It seems to me that you are a strict follower of the gpl. As I have said before there is nothing wrong with that. In fact it is pretty admirable. I still think if az released most of his code sans cheating protection you would object based on your principles, your comments, and the way that you have written your posts. Of course I could be wrong...

The release of the source code has been both a blessing and a curse to the qw community. There are great things being done like the mvd demos. Clients now have neat new features but no league will ever allow their use. It seems that If I choose to join a league, I am going to be stuck using qizmo and quakeworld for the rest of my playing days. I used to work with a group of people trying to develop a client. They added some very nice features to the engine. Unfortunately with the release of their source code, cheats were literally developed within 2 days of the release for each and every new release. The group tried to do all kinds of things to stop the cheating, but absolutely nothing worked. Eventually they tried to be cute (and quite silly) in finding ways of getting past the gpl. Carmack threatened to sue them and their project dissolved.

Although mqw does violate the gpl, and is illegal, I can see why the people behind it don't release the source code. I also sympathize with them to some degree even though I don't use mqw. I could be completely wrong, but it seems to me they want a client with advanced features that could be used in leagues. There have been quite a few leagues that have already used it with some success.

It would be nice if some of the elite quake1 programmers like rxr, az, tonik, aard, and strider (and input from the q3 legend arQ) could get together and figure out a strategy for a new client and minimize the possibility for cheating. There has been talk of simultaneously doing an open sourced client and a closed source proxy, but this also seems to me to break the gpl. If you are using the source to make the client, you would be implicitly be using the source for the proxy and would have to release the source for both. If someone programmed a new proxy by itself I doubt that anyone now would believe they did it without using the source code. There has to be something that can be done.

PS If any of the above programmers are gonna be pissed off that I mentioned you all in the same group or left someone off the list: s o r r y :)

PPS If you don't already know arQon, denial is great qw clan to be in. They are the best in the UK and one of Europes finest clans.

PPPS arQon no need to say "zzjzz if you played q3 you would be in clan (_o_) cause you are so full of shit", I already said if for u :P

Comment #45 by on 04:35, Saturday, 10 November 2001
I was talking to D!ABLO a while back, he had a solution that would solve the GPL and secure problem. His problem was that no one wanted to listen :)

Though after reading para's comment [], it may be worth Strider's time to talk with D!ABLO, before he gets deep into the coding [part of the solution was structural].

Have fun

Comment #46 by on 05:15, Saturday, 10 November 2001
I forgot D!iablo for my list. He is truly in the upper echelons of the programming strosphere. Talk to that dude, he knows his stuff.

Comment #47 by on 05:53, Saturday, 10 November 2001
> "Of course I could be wrong..."

Me telling you flat out that you are has gotten you all the way to "could be"? And *I'm* the one that's in denial?! :)
Still, even slow progress is progress, I suppose.

"Although mqw does violate the gpl, and is illegal, I can see why the people behind it don't release the source code."

No, you've bought into the sophistry that he's flinging around as "justification" for his desire to take other people's work and give nothing back in return.

FFS zzjzz, why don't you try READING the damn GPL?
Here's a link to the bit that's relevant:

It is perfectly feasible for aza to do exactly what I've outlined and be very much safe from any hassles. Same as it is for someone to write a proxy (which I'd say is a better idea, overall). The reason Carmack shut down some of the custom clients was BECAUSE they tried to do exactly what aza is doing now: take ownership of somebody else's property without their permission. That's called theft. This is not rocket science: it's basic English.

All I can say is, you should be bloody grateful to have talented people like HighlandeR and Strider around that still care about QW, because aza's abilities seem limited to blowing smoke up people's arses and having them fall for his bullshit.

LOL at the (_o_) comment. :)
You're not full of shit: like a couple of the other posters you just don't really understand what you're talking about, and unfortunately you've opted to trust a patently dishonest source.

Comment #48 by on 16:37, Saturday, 10 November 2001
there are ways to tackle cheating even under the GPL, but they would require everyone to use a newly designed client and other heavy inconveniences, and I somehow doubt this is gonna happen.

Comment #49 by on 20:24, Saturday, 10 November 2001
A project intended to help stop cheating in QW has been around for more than a year. It's QRI (available at It's closed source so I assume its protection is not easy to break; at the same time it doesn't have any problems with GPL because it doesn't use any of Quake code (well, at least it's supposed to). QRI can be used with ANY QW client as long as you keep a copy of the client binary on the server. Afaik the U.S. MegaTF community relies on QRI entirely in official games.

[Now the nasty part of it. After releasing a few functional betas, QRI development was stopped all of a sudden in August, 2000. Half a year later, I discovered that Yanster (who I believe is the project leader) was one one of the guys behind qwre (aka RVS), a cheat client that reported the ip and nickname of anyone using it to a RVS server. RVS helped catch a number of cheaters, but in no way did it stop cheating in QW. After announcing RVS to public, Yanster refused to give out its source, thus showing GPL is not any more a concern for him than it is for azazello. Now, with a bit of extrapolation we can easily assume that QRI also uses portions of Quake source]

Since QRI has never grown past beta stage, it cannot be relied on in Smackdown games. But QRI (just as well as Qizmo) is a good illustration to the fact that it is possible to have cheat protection without breaking GPL.

Its Funny
Comment #50 by on 13:59, Tuesday, 13 November 2001
How this is turned into a GPL legal v non legal discussion. Some mod authors do not like releasing source so people cant take advantages of flaws/bugs. Some dont release because they dont want people taking credit for there work. Some of the people here commenting have taken other peoples code and created there own work. Some credited authors some didnt

At end of day do what you feel happy with. You wanna violate GPL then go right ahead. You may be lucky and noone will smack you down.

KTeam was freely available because kemikal always believed it should be and it meant that it was continued by me and others when he no longer had the time. Mod wise it makes sense to have it freely moddable by others. If no source is available people are less likely to contribute. Some people just need to look past the 'ego' factor of saying they created something and add for the enjoyment of others.

I didnt release a version of kteam because the coding sucked and needed cleaned up. Which i did and the improvements were cool such as CPU reducing etc..


Comment #51 by on 04:08, Wednesday, 14 November 2001
what the fuck is going on here?

Comment #52 by on 19:53, Saturday, 17 November 2001
I like the argument "doing something 'bad' toward X is okay as long as Y benefits." Oh well, I say we do what Hoony proposed: "how about a having duel, 5 maps on qw using mqwcl and 5 maps on q3a using cpma" to solve this mess. It would at least be fun to watch. Funny stuff guys, keep it up! :)

MDV: This is a really cool idea, no doubt about it. I don't care for QW at all, but I sure can appreciate the 'l33tness' of the client.

Comment #53 by on 00:56, Monday, 19 November 2001
mqwcl and mdv just owns ..
gg azazello

Comment #54 by on 00:57, Monday, 19 November 2001
and Highlander :)

Comment #55 by on 09:23, Thursday, 22 November 2001
what's the big deal? it's just a qw client...

you don't like fakeshaft? then don't play with ppl who use it. imo, that is the only thing in mqwcl you can have a problem with.

My 10 cents ...
Comment #56 by on 14:20, Saturday, 24 November 2001
This shit you are discussing is NOT IMPORTANT.

If iD has a problem with Az's methods: Let them find out THEMSELVES and punish the "little thief" according to some "International -*COUGH*- US-bullshit laws" and then be done with it. My guess is that noone from iD has seen anything of the recent qw-developments and that they definately are busy at other (more income-effective) projects (ie: milking cash out of the all the nerdy gamers worldwide with new eyecandy).

In the meantime - enjoy MVD as it could solve A LOT of problems for the QW-community. If worked on properly it could actually be one of the more effective anti-cheat measures around. With MVD - most aimbots are a thing of the past (using them would be idiotic as every pov is recorded), and cheaters will have to explain how it is that they seem to be seeing their enemies around walls and so-forth in the MVD-demos. If the server can get more info from the clients and record it - cheatprotection could be far greater.

Also - Striders client-project could very well be "the thing". I know Strider to mean serious-business everytime he sets about something. This is the time for programmers to come together and make the next-generation of clients and servers. So stop petty-(personal)-arguing and get to work. The last bastion of oldskool gaming is counting on you - don't let anyone stand in your way! Thieve, cheat, lie, plunder and pillage your way if need be - noone from the outside is likely to help us anyway!

This is "Gaming for the People Radio" with your host Ego -

Signing off ...

Woah, this again!
Comment #57 by on 05:07, Monday, 26 November 2001
Ok, first off: To any who think that not releasing the Mqwcl source makes it more secure, it only takes a few minutes to run a decompilation. Hell, with all the code trickle-down (i can only imagine what Mqwcl source code looks like, probably it's a bloody mess- though i guess i can't say because i've never seen it) the disassembly might be EASIER to read than the source :)
It would take me all of ten minutes to write a "perfect" cheat client. It would take a few days to find the right checksums to make it all look happy. Open or closed source, it's crackable. Yeah, open is easier. I won't argue that. Closed source keeps out any of the l33t h4xx0r d00d5 that just figured out why visual basic is the scourge of email, but anyone with even a fraction of skill (and i'm far from the greatest coder in the universe) isn't going to be held back by the lack of source code.
GPL code isn't "owned" by anyone. Hell, Linus Torvalds has said himself that he can't control Linux anymore than it is willing to be controlled. thxgw.
I actually use Mqwcl because it is the only client that displays the game at brighter than "midnight in a cave black". But maybe that's the reason for not opening the source- not cheating, but control of the modifications. God knows there are enough ways to make the cheat protection obscured in obscene ways. Ever thought of splitting the proxy up in odd ways and then having another (also closed) program compile the proxy before running? Wouldn't be TOO bad, and it would give fits to the less imaginative cheaters. I could go on, but i've said enough. Well, not quite.


Am I wrong in saying that some qizmo demos already do wot mvd does?
Comment #58 by on 06:46, Wednesday, 28 November 2001
What I mean is...there are some demos that have been out for years (duel demos) which by the press of mouse2 (which for me is bound to jump) switches the POV. I always thought this type of demo had been developed but was just buggy - for example the POV wont always change when u want it to, but does so most times, and will change bak to the original POV without you doing anything. Demos I can remember which can do this are the Kane vs Laker dm2 TGI final, and another one between Reload and Mirage on dm6 (cant remember where from). Has anyone else ever seen this?

Comment #59 by on 00:21, Thursday, 29 November 2001
There were a few tgi demos where you can switch pov and you will be able to see both players POV. I am not sure what causes this or if it is just a fluke. It does happen tho.

What's next?
Comment #60 by on 20:55, Sunday, 02 December 2001
Things are getting boring on the qw front.
Is azazello still alive? If so, any word out on the next morequake version? Be shure to add mvd support and surmo's sot command :)
Also, Strider has been quiet lately, anyone know what he's up to and if he still is working on his client?
Btw ParadokS, will there be a hosted forum for Strider's client soon on the slackers page?

Can't wait for ktpro final comes out.... absolutely want to try midair :)

Keep up the good work guys!

Comment #61 by on 00:50, Monday, 03 December 2001
Well, the mvd format simply owns. zqwcl-gl owns, too: so it is good that highlander modelled it off a very cool client.

good cheer,

qizmo pov switching
Comment #62 by on 01:51, Monday, 03 December 2001
its possible by turning off autotrack (i think) in the qizmo spectator menu. You will only be able to see their pov if they are in the current PVS of the "real" players pov. But you wont have any additional information such as what weapon they are holding, their health/armour/ammo, etc..

Comment #63 by on 00:02, Wednesday, 05 December 2001
Mkay, first of all. What is azazello up to? Is he still working on Mqwcl?
Id love to see a fully working mvd player and converter in mqwcl.
If azazello is not to update morequake anymore, he should at least pass on the project on to someone he trusts and who has the ability to carry on developing the client.


Just a rumor
Comment #64 by on 00:29, Wednesday, 05 December 2001
But people might get some of the things they are asking for with regard to the mqw project......

But I could be wrong

Comment #65 by on 16:11, Wednesday, 05 December 2001
where is that gamers in the strangest places art. ?

Comment #66 by on 15:20, Friday, 07 December 2001
If you're bothered about releasing your source, you can still get a license for the engine, (costs cash though).

It's in one of the readme's for the source.

NEW MQWCL (with MVD support) avilable! :D
Comment #67 by on 19:56, Tuesday, 11 December 2001
here ->

Demos without messages
Comment #68 by on 14:51, Wednesday, 12 December 2001
Slightly related to the topic but whatever... a long time ago someone released a tool that stripped away all messages sent on messagemode2 (or all of them, cant remember) of a demo. That way people could release teamplay demos without fearing "others" may start using their strats/msgs. This is especially true with TF matches... does someone know where can I find this?

Comment #69 by on 16:27, Saturday, 15 December 2001
Actually.. the qwdtools (belonging to the mvd package) offer the possibilty to remove all mm2 msgs =). Get them at

Comment #70 by on 02:06, Tuesday, 18 December 2001
is there anyway to get the view to switch to the players pov?
the only view im able to get is the third person one.

Comment #71 by on 15:29, Tuesday, 18 December 2001
cl_chasecam 1
+attack (to fly or get into the players' eyes)
+jump (to switch povs)

Comment #72 by on 09:19, Wednesday, 19 December 2001
thank you andy.

Comment #73 by on 08:45, Friday, 21 December 2001
rE-Spawn: "Be shure to add mvd support and surmo's sot command :)"

No. Please don't. It just isn't right.

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